How Integrated EPC Teams Are Streamlining Renewables Projects

From project development and permitting to interconnection, construction and startup, the experience of a fully integrated engineer-procure-construct (EPC) team can be a crucial driver of results for renewables projects. With that in mind, two experts from Burns & McDonnell join the show to outline best practices for getting projects done amid all the uncertainty that is swirling around the industry. Cam Garner, section manager in the solar program, and Bob Fayard, solar preconstruction manager, share examples from the field and offer great tips that owners and developers can utilize at various stages of a project.

More resources from Burns & McDonnell:

Drive Predictable Results With an Integrated EPC Team

Early Moves That Matter: Aligning Solar Project Teams From Day One

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Transcript

(Note: This transcript was created using aritificial intelligence. It has not been edited verbatim.)

Sean McMahon  0:00  

What's up everyone and welcome to the Renewable Energy SmartPod. I'm your host, Sean McMahon, and I gotta say, we've got a fun and informative conversation in store for you today. In a few minutes, I'm going to be joined by Bob Fayard and Cameron Garner from Burns & McDonnell, amid all the headlines about tariffs and other uncertainty in the renewables market, there are still loads of projects that are moving forward and getting built. Bob and Cameron are going to discuss the current state of the market and what Burns & McDonnell is doing to streamline the engineering procurement and construction processes for renewables project owners and developers. 

But before we hear from them, just a quick peek at what's coming up on the schedule for this podcast later this month, Alfred Johnson from Crux will be returning to the show to talk about how tariffs and other market pressures are having an impact on financing needs in the clean energy sector, and with more liquidity needed to help fund the build out of AI data centers and other critical infrastructure, Alfred is going to explain what crux is doing during this period of great uncertainty to make energy financing more efficient. 

And just a quick reminder, if you want a daily dose of renewable energy news delivered directly to your inbox, head on over to smartbrief.com and sign up for the renewable energy SmartBrief right now, let's get things going with Bob Fayard and Cameron Garner from Burns & McDonnell. Bob is a Senior Project Manager and Cameron is a Section Manager. 

Bob, how you doing today? 

Bob Fayard

I'm Damn skippy. How are you I'm doing great. 

Sean McMahon

Cameron. How's your day going? 

Cameron Garner

Pretty good, sir. Pretty good. 

Sean McMahon

Well, I'm excited to talk to both of you. We're here to talk about the ins and outs of bringing a project to market. But before I do that, I want to step back and amid all the headlines about the trade war and uncertainty, just kind of ask the two of you, what's the overall shape of the market right now?

Cam Garner  2:14  

I think the renewables market is still very strong. The reality is there is still a huge demand and need for capacity that looks different in different areas, but I don't worry about it too much. There's way too much momentum right now behind the renewables market. So yeah, I don't worry necessarily about the headlines. There is a little bit of volatility, of course, in some of the materials, right? But as far as the market itself, I think is very strong.

Bob Fayard  2:40  

Yeah, agreed. We do have to pivot every once in a while when owners want to use domestic content or try and track down what kind of tariff impact they could see. But we are still getting all kinds of RFPs for pricing up work, and we are getting awarded. So I agree with Cam 100%

Sean McMahon  2:59  

Well, that's good to hear, you know, a little bit of good news again, surrounded by headlines that seem like there's a lot of uncertainty. So like I said, we're here to kind of talk about how to get a project off the ground and running. So can you walk me through the typical life cycle of a solar EPC project, you know, and where the construction and pre construction teams, you know, how they all mesh and come together. 

Bob Fayard  3:20  

So it may be a little different for each entity, but at Burns and Mac, we're a full EPC, we have engineering procurement and construction in house. So to me, it's awesome because I came up through the construction side. So I get a voice early. As soon as a project starts, my voice is heard. And we also have other players involved in the pre construction side. But once we're awarded, obviously, start with engineering, but at the very outset, the owner will, like dictate, most of the time, the major pieces of equipment, and most of the time they will also have those on order. So they're telling us the timeline of when those things show up and when their back feed is so then we'll craft our schedule and when we need to award procurements based upon that, and then we will go out and identify if we're going to self perform construction, which parts, or if we're going to use subcontractors, and we are off and running. But like I said, what's nice is, from the very outset, we get Camand I usually are both on the construction side, but we both get a voice on how we execute our work and the timing of everything.

Cam Garner  4:20  

Yeah. I mean, I think Bob's spot on. We may have too much of a voice, right? So sometimes they may meet us because we're on the execution side, so we're a little needy. But you know, for us, it definitely helps to be a fully integrated EPC. We have some incredible team members who come on to our projects early on, help us kind of figure some things out, identify key players, you know, optimize design. But all of that really does help to get a quality project initially turned over to the owner.

Bob Fayard  4:51  

That's what you mentioned, optimized. And I like that about us is we have engineering upfront. When we're even bidding the job. It's not. That we're using, like a rated power kind of setup. We're using a layout that was designed in CAD so we know that we can construct it, because we have all the constraints from the owner. That just pays dividends. So we optimized from the beginning, and we're not left trying to pivot later on when we can't put an array at a certain location, since we've already run those traps. So we do spend a little more time and money up front, but it pays off in the end. So

Cam Garner  5:26  

Bob, would you say that we are designed to build?

Bob Fayard  5:32  

Couldn't wait for that, could you I could be right. I think great. Cam, that's an awesome plug. Thank you very much. Yes, I would agree we are designed to build. Yeah,

Sean McMahon  5:42  

I like you squeezing that in there. Cam, good job. All right. And so, so Bob, you kind of touched on it, you know, everything that goes into, you know, the early stages. And obviously there's a lot of moving parts between engineering and procurement and construction, and if anything's misaligned, then there's, you know, cost you time and money. So dive a little deeper into that, like, what, what are some of the steps that are taken to make sure everything is aligned right at the outset of a project?

Bob Fayard  6:05  

So yes, we do have this IPPM meeting. It's like integrated program and planning management is what IPPM stands for, where we lay out the schedule, and we do that early, and we have all the players in there, and we've shifted it even earlier than normal because we were seeing that we were getting pinched on our steel. So we'll get everybody in a room. We try not to have anybody calling in, and then we will have this huge board that will lay out the whole the whole life cycle from engineering through construction. And each entity will say, hey, I need this information by the state to ward or I need this delivery by the state so I can finish construction. So that's that's one of the things that we do kind of early on to make sure we're not talking past each other. It's really collaborative. 

Sean McMahon  6:52  

So you mentioned you moved it earlier. It sounds on account of steel. What kind of time for we talking here? You know, weeks, months. How far in advance is that meeting taking place?

Bob Fayard  7:02  

We are having one right now, and that site doesn't mobilize until like next spring. So if that gives you an idea,

Cam Garner  7:09  

Yeah, I mean, it really does give us not only an opportunity to try to seize really any not only optimization as far as design, but also early procurement packages, having everyone in the room, especially some of our engineers, and some will actually go out to the field. They kind of get to see the magic right in the process and understand why we work in the way that we do in the field. It benefits everybody. There's people there to immediately ask questions to hey, we're thinking about bringing this package in at this time, right? Will the civil be done? Yeah, I don't know about that. Or you actually don't need to bring that in as early, right? We've seen on the execution side, we actually installed that in later, so that collaboration early and often helps everyone, and also when the owner comes to us, right, with any updates or problems or whatever, everybody's already changes. Really, does that happen, right? But everybody has seen that process, so can almost immediately see either where it fits in, or can kind of ring the bell to the rest of the team of, hey, we've got a new request or change. We need to rally everybody around each other, because it's going to cause a shift, right? Or we need to bring on additional resources, whatever it is. Once again, everybody is there, everybody's understanding, and now that they've seen that project through and through it, understand the puts and takes. It just streamlines the process later on.

Bob Fayard  8:30  

Cam's a lot better at putting positive spin on everything. He called it magic. See the magic? I would have said more how the sausage is made, more than magic, so the dirty underbelly of it, if you will, but great. But you know, the other part is that as part of that process, we do get constructability reviews. So it's not like we're waiting to throw it over the fence to a contractor. We're in the building and in those conversations. So how they're laying out that, not necessarily the trackers, because they're going to go north south, but how you're doing your cable management, or what time or how you're going to grade your site, and what kind of BMPs work best. So we get that kind of input early on from our construction professionals.

Sean McMahon  9:10  

Alright, and I want to pull on one thread of something you mentioned, too. I think it was subtle, but it definitely caught my attention. You said you try to get everyone in the room, you know, not on a zoom. And I feel like, you know, in today's business world, having everyone you know in the flesh, in the room is is rare. So talk to me a little bit more about that. Obviously, it's important, because you can kind of, you know, read people better than if they're, you know, just a Facebook but it sounds like, I mean, honestly, I can't remember last time I was in the room with my entire team and but you seem to make it standard practice.

Bob Fayard  9:41  

Yeah, it's body language. And as socially awkward as I am, I can still pick up on body language to a certain extent. So if I say something that'll irritate somebody, and I can see it, then I can ask the follow up question. Well, help me understand why you don't want to do it this way, whereas someone will just be silent on a. Phone, and you'll assume acquiescing means they're good with it, and that's not always the case, and usually these guys are a lot smarter than me, so they do bring up good points, but I wouldn't know that if I didn't see their face or how they turned their back when I made the comment. So yeah, I do like doing it in person.

Cam Garner  10:16  

So I can't just hit mute or pretend that my internet went out right? When someone says something that I'm not happy with, we use technology a lot, right? I mean, everybody's used to the Zoom teams. That is still something we heavily rely on. But like Bob mentioned, those nonverbal cues are important. I think also recognizing that people take in information differently. People learn differently. So when you're in the room and you're collaborating and having those conversations and seeing it, I feel like that's a multi tiered approach to making sure that you get the relevant information that you need and or can ask the question immediately to the entire project team. So even though it seems antiquated, some of those old fashioned methods work, right? And we can't forget about that, as we're always trying to be better.

Bob Fayard  11:03  

Yeah, that kind of goes along with CO locating too. Like, I don't know, five or six years ago, I moved up with our it was a program that we had, like, nine sites in Wisconsin, and I moved up with the engineers and everything else. So it was, you got to hear a lot of conversations that you wouldn't typically hear if you're just emailing back and forth or IMing, and I can learn something, or I can shut stuff down that doesn't need to happen. 

Sean McMahon  11:27  

So it sounds like you're getting a lot of insights from, quite frankly, being in the room. And you know, sometimes that can save you some trouble, right? If you lay out some kind of long lead timeline, and one of your colleagues does an eye roll because they're in the room. You see it. You don't see it because they're on the phone. That matters, right? So what other pre construction insights are you gleaning that influence procurement decisions? You know, especially like I said, for long lead items or balance of system components?

Bob Fayard  11:56  

Well, so Cam will be better at this than I am, because he's living it more frequently than I am. But one thing that I just went through on a project is pre cutting our cable, and we have that's how we set up the procurement. So we set up the award, and come to find out now, the vendor is trying to crawfish on us, and they can't meet our schedule unless we take master reels. So then I engage our construction team and trying to do that balance of how much of this can I take on a master reel, how much do I need pre cut to stay on schedule and not incur additional costs. So those are one of the things I would say.

Cam Garner  12:33  

The reality of what we do. I talk to folks and when I mentioned, you know, solar, especially to season construction. People who are used to doing combined cycles, or whatever it is, they're always like, solar is not really that difficult. It's not that there's a couple of things that will bite you, right? So for us, the devil's in the details and in our industry, minutes really equal millions. So if we can do something that can slice a minute, a minute and a half off of that task is huge, because we repeat things more than hundreds, I mean, 10s of 1000s of times, right? When you think about module setting or cable pulling or tracker install, so having some of that relationship with our vendors about how they ship and package items out, right? You know, we always talk about, hey, you know, we want this in buildable megawatts. We don't want our team necessarily waiting on material to come and have that kind of impact their efficiency. We want it there, right? So when Bob was talking about pre cut cable, it may seem like, oh my gosh, why would you go through the effort? Is it really worth it? Well, if that means that we can bring in, you know, easier to source equipment to do the cable pool or move it around the site easier. That is huge, versus, you know, waiting on larger cable reels, right? That may take longer time. And now we have teams that are waiting right or spending more money on that. So it seems like very small and detailed and nuanced, but it really is important, because at the end of the day, one of our major goals is to set our execution teams up for success, and have them have the ability to get as much efficiency as they can safely, right, you know, and with the same quality standard. 

Bob Fayard  14:15  

Yeah. So it's almost like an industrial engineer coming in to help you, like you're in a factory, almost, because you're repeating the same process multiple times. And a lot of that input comes from the craft or the superintendents that are out there with the workers as well. They'll come up with new ways to do things all the time. And then we get to feedback to engineering, so they understand how what they do can impact what we do in the field.

Sean McMahon  14:39  

All right now that's a great example of, you know, how little things can become big things for solar projects. And you know, I kind of want to expand on that right now. So speaking specifically to solar, you know, what are some of the common constructability challenges, and how does your team go about addressing them? Like you said early on in the process.

Bob Fayard  14:56  

So it's a logistics game, getting materials just in time. Them, so you're not having to store them and then move them again. The fewer times you can touch something, the better to get it done. So that'll save you time and money. So we were just at a site where they were moving things into the array earlier than we would. But there's different ways to skin a cat, but I would just say that part is logistics, and it's the repeat, and not touching it more than you need to. And then I guess erosion control is it seems to be a big one, because we're on these one to 2000 acre sites. So getting the geotech, getting the soil samples, you can't take a sample every acre at this year like you're lucky to get one boring or a pile load test every inverter block, which is what Cam20 acres, or something like that. It's a big swath of land. So those two things can really bite you. And we've started last couple years, the last few projects, we have started pre mob seeding. So before we ever mobilized to the site. A lot of these are farm fields. So instead of showing up to a muddy mess in the spring, we'll either have the owner or we'll do it ourselves the fall before we'll go out and see that area with the site preceded, it's fully vegetated. Design can take that into account, and that allows for fewer basins which the authority having jurisdiction there, the counties or the townships really appreciate because they don't want to deal with those more than they need to. And when you can show a fully vegetated site, they like that a lot, because that's going to cut down on any potential sedimentation leaving the site.

Sean McMahon  16:32  

So you touched on soil conditions a little bit. What other site specific data is important? Be it permitting timelines, interconnection requirements, you know, how do things like that influence the early stage planning for projects? 

Cam Garner  16:44  

I always say all of it right, right? I mean, the amount of data that we can get early is definitely going to influence how we design, how we set up our execution teams, what options we even have for procurement packages, right? Some vendors historically have very, very long lead times. Some maybe have better lead times, right? That will fit in that schedule, like you were talking about, you know, with the the geo tech getting that early information, maybe we need to do additional Paul load testing, right? Maybe the initial report just didn't really take in consideration all aspects, right? I mean, you really are doing samples around the site. Same thing with the interconnection agreements or PPAs, if there is a timeframe and you're like, hey, it may be kicked out a little bit, talk with your contractor. Either we can mobilize later, or maybe that's us mobilizing, having a small period where we turn the site back over to the owner, whatever it is, we can work through that, but we just have to know it. It's one of those where we talk about it a lot of times for contractors and owners to develop a relationship, and that's part of it, is that sharing of information so that each person can take it in. If the contractor can't do something, just be honest, right? And say why? Hey, I know you guys wanted this. We can't meet that. And a lot of that is based off of that early, early data, so that we can actually analyze it. 

Bob Fayard  18:13  

So you mentioned pile load tests, and so I was just on a call this morning about a project where the owner had the geotech done in the middle of winter, which is not something we want done typically, because usually we're trying to stay above ground during the winter, if we're out there working. So you want the pilot testing the geotech done in the spring, summer or fall, not during the winter, because during that winter, the drive times they were showing in the geotech report were super long. And if you plan for that, for the entire site, you're going to price yourself out of the work and or the owner is going to be left overpaying for something that's not realistic, because those piles should be driven summer, spring or fall, not during the winter. So we can get information that's reliable. That's the biggest thing. 

Cam Garner  18:59  

You know, we're we were kind of talking about common challenges. And if you notice, a lot of that focused on Geo tech and the early data. One of the things I tell my team is that, you know, if our projects went to plan, they wouldn't need us, right? You know, we wouldn't have a job. Solar is unique, and where it is not built under roof, it is dependent on the previous task, and we really do build from the ground up. So a lot of our success really is based off of, like you said, that early geotech or permitting data, just to kind of help keep us successful with solar, there are going to be challenges we can plan and have a plan A, B and C, but the reality is, we're typically working with Plan D, E and F, right? If an area decides to have their 100 year storm event at the time that we're working, that is something that we have to adapt to, right? That's that's even though we have weather days it could be longer than what was typical. So helping to work through these challenges, remember to be adaptable. Remember to have a plan, but that once again, you may have to deviate from that plan and be patient and communicate with the owner. Trust me, the owner is seeing probably the challenges that you're encountering. Don't hide or run from them. Be forthcoming and work through them with the owner. I think that's been key to our success. 

Sean McMahon  20:19  

Co-location with battery energy storage systems has become a huge trend, obviously. So that also introduces another variable. I presume you know when you're building out a site. So how does that change your approach to the pre construction planning when you know you have a storage element to the project?

Bob Fayard  20:34  

Well, you mentioned co locate. I mentioned co locate earlier, when I moved up to the engineering our battery team is one row over for me, so it's not real difficult for us. So we've got one right now that we are designing and waiting on the award for the 60% design effort, and it's not super difficult, because the best is a lot more compact than the PV side of the house, and it's usually adjacent to the substation to minimize cabling, but I haven't found it to be difficult yet. It's a little bit newer for us to combine it with the PV and the substation work that we've been doing for the last few years, but our best team has been operating for multiple years, and they've been pretty successful. So it's just making sure that our approach and how we share information is clear to everybody involved, and they're involved with that ippm meeting that I mentioned earlier, early on with the schedule. So we'll get to hear them complain about us, and they'll hear us complain about them. But since we're under the same roof and all working to the same goal, it seems to work out just fine.

Sean McMahon  21:37  

So what advice would you give to owners or developers who want to get the most value out of their EPC partner during the pre construction phase?

Cam Garner  21:45  

Turn us loose as quickly as you can. You do not have to have everything figured out. You know, at Burns & McDonnell, we have plenty of people from an environmental team, like I said, our engineering procurement that can help you work through those. I find that sometimes when working with someone, they think they have to have the full plan. So they're waiting, right? They have, you know, 50% of the information or 70% but they're waiting to give it to us. Don't do that. Let us get in there. Let us help you with some of the engineering layout, right? Help with equipment selection, whatever it is. Turn us loose. Engage that EPC partner as soon as you can. And like I said, whatever information you have, all of it, hand it over and start the conversation.

Bob Fayard  22:28  

Yeah, don't, don't piecemeal it out to us. Give us everything. So I've got a project right now where we're waiting on the initial engineering Po, and the owner is hesitant to release us because they don't have the solar ordinance from the township yet. And even there, even when we don't have a solar ordinance, it's not going to change our approach that much on the engineering side. Yes, we will have to fine tune it once they say, hey, the setbacks are 20 feet versus 25 feet. But the bulk of our engineering work can start before we have that ordinance in hand, without too much of an impact down the road, because which what happens lots of times, is they will wait for that solar ordinance and waste plenty of months when we could be doing engineering work or even just a kickoff meeting getting people started. And then our time is crunched, and when your crunch on your work, the results aren't as good as when you have your normal duration to do the activity. So I would same as Cam turn us loose. Please don't crunch us on the back end to fit the constraints well.

Sean McMahon  23:28  

Thanks for that advice on how business owners and developers can navigate their future. Perfect segue to what I like to do on this show, I like to ask guests for their bold predictions about what some of the hottest topics or biggest issues might be for this industry in, say, two or three years. And now I know for you guys, there's a lot of uncertainty, obviously, stuff that you know your team can control, and a lot of things you can't. But what would you say? What are some of your bold predictions? 

Bob Fayard  23:53  

Cam's a lot better prognosticator than I am. I'll let him go first,

Cam Garner  23:59  

I think bold predictions for for this market. I think that the technology that we use to install our equipment is only getting better and growing. That is from some of the kind of trade standard partners, right, like Vermeer. We use them a lot for Apollo driving, but noticing even their technology is working better. There is, of course, with solar, a lot of folks working hand in hand with tools or lifting. So seeing a lot of devices, like I said, helping with that, just technology in general, approving, everybody really is trying to optimize just the install process. So for me, I don't see solar disappearing. I actually only see it growing based off of, you know, current trends. And as Bob was saying, you know, people still knocking at our door asking us, you know, do we want to build for them? But I think everybody's just sharpening their pencil that much more.

Bob Fayard  24:46  

So just like you mentioned equipment, like I was thinking about the trackers of the world, they are going to bendy trackers, and so you're able to put solar in locations that maybe you weren't as optimized before, they're hilly, without doing as much. Much grading work as previously, you don't have to make the site completely flat, so that's one that is helping. So I'm assuming that the modules will get more efficient without having to grow in size. Would be one prediction, because that's how they've gotten bigger. So far, it seems to be their size has gotten bigger, but their efficiency will keep getting better and better as well, and then we're able to shrink our size, because that's one of the main issues there, is how big these sites get. If you can cut down your footprint, you can save grading and time and everything else. So I think this should continue to get less expensive to install as well.

Sean McMahon  25:32  

Okay, gentlemen, why I've learned a lot about not only industry, but how your team at Burns & McDonnell operates. So I appreciate your insights today. 

Bob Fayard  25:39  

Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having us on I appreciate it. 

Cam Garner  25:43  

Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

Sean McMahon  25:46  

Well, that's our show for today. If you like this podcast, please share it with your friends and colleagues, and be sure to follow us on Apple, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you'd like a daily dose of renewable news delivered to your inbox, head to SmartBrief.com and sign up for the Renewable Energy SmartBrief. The Renewable Energy SmartPod is a production of SmartBrief, a Future company,