Optimizing the Grid to Electrify Everything

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When you think of the company 3M, you probably think of Post-it notes. But 3M produces a lot more products than Post-it notes. In fact, 3M is very active in the energy sector.

Terry Collier, Vice President of Research and Development for 3M's Electrical Markets Division, joins the show to spend some time talking about the grid. Transmission queues are a well known problem for the energy sector, with some new projects expected to take years before the power they generate can be integrated into the grid. But as you all know, we need more power now. So Terry shares some of the solutions that 3M is developing to help get the most out of existing grid infrastructure.

With events like extreme weather putting a strain on grids, Terry also outlines technologies already in the marketplace that aim to enhance grid stability and resiliency. We also discuss cutting-edge innovations to help wind farms, utilities and distributed energy resources (DERs) control their costs, reduce downtime, and optimize performance.

More resources from 3M

The Future of Our Grid
3M.com/Forward

Highlights from Terry Collier

Challenges to electrifying everything - (5:13)
3M's activities surrounding EVs - (6:43)
Addressing the problem of lengthy transmission queues - (7:47)
Deplying sensors to boost grid performance and resiliency - (9:03)
More solutions to enhance grid resiliency - (15:41)
The role of AI in modern grid management - (18:55)
3M's activities in the wind and solar sectors - (21:42)
Terry's bold predictions about the movement to electrify everything - (24:10)
The 'One Thing' related to energy that Terry spends the most time thinking about - (26:30)

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Transcript

(Note: This transcript was creating using artificial intelligence. It has not been edited verbatim.)

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This episode of the Renewable Energy SmartPod is brought to you by CDM Smith. Did you know that there's a nearly limitless supply of renewable energy under your feet? Stream a webinar from CDM Smith on selecting and applying geothermal energy networks. To learn more, visit CDMsmith.com/webinars. That's CDMsmith.com/webinars or click on the link in the show notes. 

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Sean McMahon

What's up everyone, and welcome to the Renewable Energy SmartPod. I'm your host Sean McMahon, and we've got a great episode coming up today. If you're like me, when you think of the company 3M, you probably think of Post-It notes. But guess what, 3M produces a lot more products than post it notes. In fact, 3M is very active in the energy sector. I'm going to be joined in a few minutes by Terry Collier, Vice President of Research and Development for 3M's Electrical Markets Division, Terry and I are going to spend a chunk of time talking about the grid. Transmission queues are a well known problem for the energy sector. With some new projects expected to take years before the power they generate can be integrated into the grid. But as you all know, we need more power now. So Terry shares some of the solutions that 3M is developing to help get the most out of existing grid infrastructure, and weather events like extreme weather putting a strain on grids. Terry also outlines technologies that are already in the marketplace that aim to enhance grid stability and resiliency. We will also discuss cutting edge innovations to help wind farms, utilities and distributed energy resources, control their costs, reduce downtime, and optimize performance. As you'll hear, Terry is incredibly passionate about his work. The energy he displays talking about energy comes right out through the microphone. And I gotta say it's contagious. I think you'll enjoy hearing what he has to say. 

Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining me. My guest today is Terry Collier from 3M. Terry, how you doing today?

Terry Collier  03:17

Hey, Sean, great to be here with you on the Renewable Energy SmartPod podcast. Thanks for having me.

Sean McMahon  03:24

I love the energy. Terry, that's awesome. Well, we're here to talk about what 3M is doing in the renewable energy space. So why don't you kick it off? You know, what are some of the offerings that you and your team are bringing to this industry? 

Terry Collier  03:36

Yeah, Sean full. First, let me just back up one moment and talk a little bit about 3M, because 3M can be a really big place. And you know, normally people think about us for two things, post it note and tape. And I hope all of you have some, if you don't, please get some. So 3M is separated into four business groups, we've got safety and industrial, which is where we sit in the electrical business, and then transportation, electronics, consumer and healthcare, which we're actually gonna be spinning off early next year. And so as many things start 3M has some tools, we work with customers, and there's a problem. And one of the tools we had was tape. And so early on in the early 60s, we actually our application engineers discovered a way to be able to connect medium voltage cables using tape. And so we would rebuild the cable jacket layer by layer with different rolls of tape. And so they would go over and over, I have some of these great blueprints of the instructions of how we used to rebuild these cables with rolls of tape. So someone would roll that entire roll of tape out in order to connect these two. But then as we began to learn and understand what was happening in this space, we developed a new technology called culturing, which is imagine a stretched material like a rubber band that has all the layers of the cable jacket you put on top of your cable and you shrink it down. And in one step you have this entire process that happened so it continued to follow our customers. We also then develop sensors and sensor solutions, which are some of the things that we're working on. I look forward to talking about today. But you know, this is continues to be a great space for us in this area. And then renewables, we have things like leading edge protection for Wind Blade turbines and solutions for solar. And so happy to talk about any of those as we continue the discussion.

Sean McMahon  05:13

Yeah, certainly. So one of the hot topics in this industry is electrify everything, you know, which I like to tell people electrify as much as we can as soon as we can. What do you see are some of the biggest challenges in achieving that?

Terry Collier  05:24

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, because electricity is one of the best forms of energy because there's very little to no emissions at that point of use. And so it can be generated using renewable sources. And the levelized cost of energy has come down so much that renewable just makes sense financially makes sense from a decarbonisation, it makes sense from sustainability. So I couldn't agree with you more. And even if you're not using renewable, you can manage the emissions at that site of generation and compare to because it's now separated through the use of electricity. But you know, one of the biggest drivers is it always takes innovation. And so we have to want to, and I love the way you phrase that is we've got to want to do this. And I think we see that happening in the transportation space with the electrification of vehicles, it took disruption, really to get that traction, to be able to no pun intended to be able to get cars driving into electricity. And so that was a space that we see as a big deal. And we think that continues to have to happen, you know, the second is just we simply need more generation on the grid. I mean, the biggest challenge is we just don't have enough power, I think there's almost twice the number of megawatts sitting, waiting to be added onto the grid that we have today on the grid due to some of the challenges of transmission and how we integrate it. So I think there are a lot of challenges around how to begin electrifying that energy consumption. 

Sean McMahon  06:47

And you mentioned electric vehicles. Obviously, that's a hot topic. It's in the news all the time, there's all kinds of plans for charging networks and things like that. Where does 3M fit into that puzzle? 

Terry Collier  06:57

So for electric charging vehicles, everything from we work with partners in order to develop motors, more efficient motors, components for batteries in order to be able to create these batteries. And one thing that's pretty exciting about batteries is you think about electric vehicle cars can now have range up to 400 miles plus, which is a balance of both the construction of the battery, the energy density, the battery, as well as the overall weight of the car. So combining all those things together, we help our customers meet some of those trade offs. So we work with customers to develop disruptive solutions to help them not have to choose a or b, but get some synergistic solution from both of those areas. So we're working with a number of manufacturers as we begin to do this. And I think the incredible thing is people are out now driving around with 60 kilowatt Batteries Plus in their cars, which is more than you need for your house and entire day.

Sean McMahon  07:47

You also touched on the grid and transmission queues that are quite lengthy. So what kind of solutions do you and your team kind of have for that? Or any kind of vision of helping kind of empty out those queues? I guess you'd say and bring that power to the grid?

Terry Collier  07:59

Yeah, you know, I think one of the biggest areas and challenges around those queues is understanding how to put that onto the grid as its transmission capacity, and the transmission capacity is significantly limited. And you can imagine, if you want to put new infrastructure into the ground, it's going to be in the environmental reviews, the right away reviews, as well as just can the grid handle it and where and how can it go. And so one of the biggest challenges, just a number of of the distributed generation will say, hey, I want to go onto the grid, they get an initial quote for that price. Once they actually get closer up that cue, they've done the analysis that can increase 10x, which can destroy all the value that we're creating with putting that distributed generation on the grid. So there are a couple of solutions we have. So we actually have a CCR cable, which is a cable that you can actually read conductor, your current transmission line, and get twice the capacity of your current structures and infrastructure. So that's a great way to be able to quickly go back, reconnect to your current infrastructure and be able to get twice the power. So we're working on a number of fronts in order to be able to help increase the capacity of the current grid.

Sean McMahon  09:03

And then also, when we talk about grid, there's obviously conversations about resiliency. For the most part, the grid around the US has performed pretty well. And recent heat waves, you know, I think, even down in Texas, where they had issues a couple years ago, now, Hey, you gotta give credit where credit was due, if you're gonna kind of criticize them for falling apart and a winter storm, you got to give him a little kudos for staying online during the heat waves. So what are some of the things you see in terms of ensuring that the grids we are either already have or new transmission lines that are built are more resilient and can kind of handle these either demand or weather related challenges?

Terry Collier  09:36

Well, I think there are two pieces that go to that one is on the consumption side. And being a Texas resident myself, I've experienced both the highs and the lows of that. And you know, as we're looking at some of the warm weather that we're experiencing now, just some of the asks in order to help us manage some of that power. And so how do we manage power appropriately from a consumption level of using power and off peak times for certain tasks, using it and understanding how we manage that power. So I think there's a lot that happens on the consumer side, whether that be choosing the right appliances, or the right things in your home or the right tools, or when we can have battery backup or storage behind the meter. The second piece around that, I think, is really going to be understanding how the electricity network grid works. And I think one thing that people don't typically understand or think about is, there is a cable that connects you to where that electricity is being generated. And for so many years, this was a one way flow of electricity, I would generate one place, and I would drive it to that second place. And so I think we first had that first big wave of innovation that happened with smart meters. And that people started getting with smart meters that was that were put on their home. So now I knew how much was going in, I knew how much was coming out, I can do the math, and I can calculate what was happening in between. But with distributed generation, now we're inserting power into the medium voltage side. So we're putting it into that secondary substation. So now that I have power coming into that secondary substation, one of the biggest challenges is now what's happening in the middle, which is much harder to calculate or predict. 

Sean McMahon  11:08

So what you're saying is that gap kind of in the connection there, where there's information going back and forth, that is right, for research and development, and perhaps new solutions,

Terry Collier  11:16

You know, it really is, as we begin to look at how do you get visibility, the way that you can make an improvement is you first have got to see it. And so that's where we see a lot of opportunity to happen. And there are two elements of that, and it's sensors and digitization. And so in order to digitize so much of this using algorithms that can make changes so much faster that we can predict or understand, we now we have to see it first. And so we've been spending a lot of time working with partners to develop sensors, and these sensors are retrofittable can go into your existing infrastructure. So gives you a really great circularity story of not replacing and ripping out millions of dollars of equipment, but extending the life of your current equipment by adding sensors directly into that equipment, now giving you more data and information to be able to then be able to see things like voltage, current phase angle, and all sorts of information. So you can see if you have a voltage sag as well, whatever is happening at that moment to be able to make the rest of the adjustments in order to be able to keep the network more robust. I think one of the challenges has always been as we've always thought about putting in more electrical cables and having more redundancy. But how do we get more resiliency out of the existing infrastructure we have? And how do we leverage that for more capacity. So as we talked about before, we certainly need more capacity and transmission. So we can we use that for more capacity, compared to simply having it for that redundancy, and get more resiliency. But in order to get that resiliency, we have to have that visibility. So we really began working on things like sensors in order to be able to get that visibility, but then not just a sensor, but systems of sensors to be able to integrate that information together. And with that, you begin to have lots more visibility. It's one area we think about quite a bit is how do you know when something's going to happen? I mean, one of the biggest issues we have is, you know, when when I was a kid, and the power would go out, it was it was okay. But today, we have so much critical infrastructure that demands electricity. Electricity is the fuel that empowers our modern economy. Without it, everything shuts down. If you think about data centers, and all of the applications we have on our phones, our banking system so much is based upon electricity, I get really excited about the integration of renewable because that gives us all sorts of additional generation capacity and many additional ways for the grid to be able to route power to you. And so instead of that one path that has to go from that generation to where you are, there are now many additional paths, if you can get visibility, and you can have digitization together, we see this as a massive tipping point, an incredible trend that we're looking forward to being able to help our customers with. 

Sean McMahon  13:48

Okay, so if I'm a utility, or someone who's kind of operating a grid that is enabled with all these sensors, you're talking about, what does that information flow towards me look like? Is there a dashboard kind of telling me like, hey, these these blocks over here, this kind of neighborhood over here is struggling even is it down to the actual individual house level or commercial building level? Or, you know, what does that interface look like for the operator of that grid.

Terry Collier  14:11

There's lots of flexibility and what that interface can look like, whether it is their current digital management system, their DMS, and how that plugs into the systems they're using. But this is an additional data point, whether it be through an API, whether it be through a web interface that gives them that insight, so that they can pull all this data together at substations across our entire network. And if you can put enough nodes in all depending on the architecture of your grid and what you have, in your substation, you're able to then look and say, okay, power can come from here to here, here to here, and how do I right route that power? And so it's been really exciting to work with customers understand what they have. And what really interesting story is, if you think about most of the grids that are in the United States, many of them were built for lighting. And so it was in order to give us lights. And so today if you can imagine the pool Well that we have for electricity, it's so much greater than where we ever were before. And so the grid has been built and then rebuilt, and then there was more added on to it. And we haven't done a lot of major construction on the electricity grid since the since the 70s, when we put a lot of our transmission in as a country. And so there are lots of upgrades that have been put in quite piecemeal. And if you even look at what the entire grid looks like, there's lots of work that has to happen in order to truly integrate it. And so, yes, the grid operators are doing a fabulous job of managing for one way. But when we start to get to that local, two way communication, having sensors in those sensor systems are going to be really helpful in order to give visibility that we work with our customers to help enable.

Sean McMahon  15:41

So in addition to the sensors, are there any other solutions out there either in existence or in the pipeline that can tackle this problem of grid resiliency?

Terry Collier  15:49

Well, I think there are a number of approaches that are happening in order to support this. And sensors happened to be one of them that we're excited about. But also a couple of the other areas are obviously the automated switches to be able to switch things on and off and the automation. So there's actuation, and they're sensing and the combination of those two, and as I talked about the digitization piece of being able to combine the two of those together will truly give you that complete system. And so we see this as a place ripe for innovation. And we continue to work with partners and customers as we integrate these solutions as we begin to see layer and layer and layer begin. And I think a lot of this has happened for transmission, which is all overhead. But when you think about underground overhead, you can see and you can detect when things happen underground, which is far more resilient, because of so much that's happening in climate change. That extreme weather conditions. You talked a little bit about that early on with the winter weather storm. Many places aren't prepared for that from an overhead transmission standpoint, and one line goes down. Again, if you think about this direct flow from where its energy is generated, to where it's consumed, you ultimately will lose your power. But if you can have multiple sources that have sensors to be able to redirect, you need both the sensors and the digitization to be able to actuate. And I think some new equipment is coming with that. But again, I think it's a big opportunity to retrofit so much of your existing equipment to give you more visibility, kind of more eyes more places.

Sean McMahon  17:13

And so if I understand the right will these sensors be able to help predict outages?

Terry Collier  17:18

That is exactly what we're doing is we are integrating data from multiple sensors, and putting that data together in order to be able to see changes in performance of your system, whether it's things like partial discharge, putting all that information together to see the acceleration of changes. And as you see those changes, being able to make predictions, it's almost like your heart. So we can't predict when you're gonna have a negative outcome from your heart. But there's certainly a number of factors we can monitor that will show you have a higher likelihood of doing that. And so we've continued to develop solutions in order to be able to help identify and predict when things are going to happen, because when you have an unplanned outage, it's always happens at the worst time. And it's much longer because you have to find it. Once you find it, you have to find the parts to repair it. And then you have to do the repair. And that can be an extensive period of time, especially for some of our critical infrastructure.

Sean McMahon  18:04

We'll be right back. 

This episode of the renewable energy smart pod is brought to you by CDM. Smith, the experts at CDM. Smith can help you navigate your energy future, whether that's implementing renewables like geothermal, converting your fleet to EVs, or optimizing your energy use. Learn more at CDM smith.com/energy. That's CDM smith.com/energy. Or click on the link in the show notes. And now back to my conversation with Terry Collier, Vice President of Research and Development for 3M's Electrical Markets Division. 

Now obviously one of the hot topics, not just in the energy industry, but wider society these days is artificial intelligence. And it sounds like some of the things we're talking about might leverage that. But where else is that kind of technology being used in some of 3M solutions? 

Terry Collier  19:09

You know, we we have a team looking at artificial intelligence and really leveraging that across the entire company in a couple of areas, which is when you start with AI, you always want to have data. And so where can you get enough data. And so we looked at our own manufacturing sites and facilities, and really began to look at what we were manufacturing all our manufacturing data and all of our process parameters. And maybe I'm gonna geek out for a minute as a scientist, but we love doing experiments a scientist. And one of the challenges is how do you get enough data points. And so we started building out capabilities to really do combinatorial analysis on a variety of the conditions that you might be running in an experiment and then be able to do a surface response and identify those that write integration of, of materials, whether an elements components, process condition, put all that together to find that magical point that gives you the result and really an So as the questions that you were looking for, through that, we continue to be able to develop these algorithms develop these tools, and then apply them to all sorts of other spaces. So if you've not seen 3M's periodic table, we have this periodic table of our capabilities, where we look at materials, process, digital, and applications. And across each one of those, we can integrate these together, do some really interesting experiments, and then build out and identify things faster in a different way. And one of the things I love about AI is it doesn't give you the answer, but it gives you some unique combinations to consider. So someone who's knowledgeable in the space gets some really interesting, uncommon connections that we can then evaluate and test. And so we're doing that in our manufacturing site. We're obviously leveraging that in this space, and many other areas as we begin to look at predicting material performance and a range of applications.

Sean McMahon  20:51

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, from where I'm sitting, it seems like great management is definitely a place where which is ripe for AI innovation. So that sounds promising.

Terry Collier  20:59

Well, it's fun, because there's so many new things that can be learned and discovered through that process. As I mentioned, many of the grids have been built upon an old grid, which is built upon a new grid, something was fixed, that was broken. And as you begin to look at how all these pieces interact, it works. But what do I know? And how do I learn about more of the topology of the network that I have? And this offers a great way to get that visibility, and to learn as things change, whether it's with temperature change with how much demand you can get out of a wind farm. So one of the challenges with wind farms is how much power can I get out of my wind farm? And when do I need to potentially curtail that power? These gives you tools to be able to have some of that visibility, and to be able to help manage that overall solution. Yeah, gotcha.

Sean McMahon  21:42

So a lot of listeners of this podcast are involved in wind or solar, and you know, sometimes both. So any solutions from 3M that are kind of really specific for those technologies.

Terry Collier  21:53

You know, one area that we spent a lot of time thinking about is leading edge protection for wind blades. So if you begin to look at a wind blade, wind blades don't look like they're moving very fast. But these wind blades are larger than a football field, which is absolutely incredible to me, when you begin to see these off in the distance, they look very small, when you get up close. It's incredible the size that they are. And so we make a leading edge protection film, which will actually protect that that blade, because one of the challenges is that when you install a wind turbine, there's an expected output an annual, an output of energy you're expecting from that wind turbine. And the challenges are okay, how do I make sure I get as much of that output as I possibly can. And so one of the areas is when that leading edge actually gets eroded, you have a less of an ability to be able to get the yard to be able to catch the wind to be able to get that output and you see a degradation and that AEP, we developed a leading edge protection tape a number of years ago, and we've leveraged our current technology and capability. And one thing that's pretty unique is there's a trade off, because when you put a leading edge protection tape, it can only be but so thick, because if it's too thick, you'll get turbidity at the edge, which will cut down that AP, but you want to be as thick as possible to give you the best protection. So we ended up making a tape that was thick in the middle and thin on the inside leveraging 3M and technology. The challenge with that is if you have a tape that stick in the middle and thin on the edges, it's very hard to roll up. So we were able to leverage some of our capabilities in filmmaking that we've used in complete different applications. Take that technology leverage in the space and make a flat film. So our customers get a flat film that can roll out and when they take the liner off, they get this profile front, which gives you very strong protection, because that thicker layer plus our PSA adhesives, which work very well in this space, and you can roll it up and get it in a roll. So it's easy to use, easy to transport and easy to apply and gives you the best performance, especially as you look at some of the trade offs, which are a large shell that's molded, which is much more expensive and much more difficult to apply. But we get very similar performance. So innovations like that, which are some of the small areas but really have an incredible impact on the overall lifetime. So if you can imagine the change in cost and value you can get out of these solutions. It's incredible over time.

Sean McMahon  24:10

Do you have any bold predictions about the state of grid reliability or the electrify everything? Momentum? What do you think those two things might be in five or 10 years?

Terry Collier  24:20

As I think about this, you know, one of the areas I reflect on is just always reflect on the demand and the pull what's going to drive this and what are some of the key drivers. And so today, Sean, if you bought a house, would you dream of buying a house without a toilet or running water? No. So likewise, I think in the five or 10 years, you're going to be in that same place with not imagining buying a house that doesn't have renewable energy, or a generation source and a battery. I think it's going to become as common as a toilet and running water. But additionally to that, what does that mean for the grid? So if that's the driver, the grid is going to have to become this two way dynamic system. The supplies us to trade and to meet that demand on a momentary basis to be able to trade so you can sell me power, I can sell you power. And it's I think we're going to have lots and lots of interactions that happen with power, because this is going to become this dynamic real time system that supplies energy across many, many sources.

Sean McMahon  25:20

So I won't expand on that notion there about buying a home and how, you know, either battery backup, or renewable generation will just be so commonplace that it's a given with that. And with all the sensors you're talking about, are we going to be in a place where even at my own home, like I can have an app on my phone telling me hey, that's right, my, the grid for my house is being stretched, Hey, turn off the TV, or, Hey, tell the kids to turn off one of their five mobile devices, things like that, in real time, because right now, I can do that with my thermostat. We're kind of familiar with smart thermostats. But you're telling me there might be a place where I can just with swiping my thumb, kind of back off my energy consumption. And I'll get alert when it's going to, you know, too far, whether it's whether it's your an extreme event, or just an everyday kind of basis?

Terry Collier  26:03

Yeah, I think that's going to be the drivers that demand the grid to then become this real time dynamic system. And we know, it's possible as we begin adding this visibility on so many different fronts, and I think the utilities are gonna have a great position to play in all of this, as the brokers of all of these trades that happen. And you can imagine the price of power being higher if you decide to put your power on or goes a little bit lower. And I think this interaction is going to be a really exciting time.

Sean McMahon  26:30

And then so what's the one thing you spend the most time thinking about, you know, whether it's your driving in your car, and you got time to kind of just think, you know, what's the one thing energy related that really kind of occupies your brain?

Terry Collier  26:42

You know, one of the things that I spend a lot of time thinking about is how to prevent outages, you know, one of the challenges is that when an outage occurs in the grid, you have to find it. And you know, we we certainly support our customers through our locating and marking of finding things underground. So we have a credible focus on the underground network. So first, you have to find it, then once you find it, find whatever is going wrong, you have to dig it up, then once you dig it up, you have to then be able to take it out, replace it, find the parts. So, you know, we spend a lot of time really trying to understand what works and doesn't work. And so as we do that we learned so much from our customers and partners around, hey, do this, do more of this, do less of this make modifications. And we have this back and forth. And this partnership. And so I spend a lot of time thinking about how do we make sure that we can be part of the process of doing this on a regular basis. The other thing I will say is we begin to look at the number of electricians in the field today. And we see lots of challenges in the just the people who do this, this type of work today, and just the change in the workforce, and how can we support the new workforce coming in, and they're looking for digital tools, they're looking for so much of what they see in so many other areas of life. And we get excited about the training that we do with them and learning as much from them as they learn from us. And then also helping give them tools that can make their job more efficient and help them become more effective at their job, ultimately, with the goal of how do we prevent outages. I mean, that's that's the world I would love to live in, that we could say we understand the grid well enough that we can integrate renewable generation. And we can have a system that can support it. Because if you think about just the efficiencies that you can get from electricity grid, you don't have to transport fuel, you don't have to store fuel of a hazardous liquid. So you get so many benefits because you get this immediate network. And I think there's going to be a lot of power there, no pun intended. And I think there's a lot of impact that we can have, whether it be around global warming, whether it be decarbonisation, I think so many so many countries are looking to this, in order to be able to really say how do I balance this increase? I have electricity generation, how do I manage both the increase in demand, as well as also managing decarbonisation? 

Sean McMahon  28:57

So it sounds like 3M's got a lot of exciting things going on, and you're sitting at the epicenter of it. You know, we're the R&D team. So where can we learn more about everything you're doing?

Terry Collier  29:06

Yeah this is one of many of the really high growth spaces that we are engaged in participating in. And so to learn more about 3M, delivering our material science based solutions at scale, we'd love for you to go check it out at 3M.com/forward.

Sean McMahon  29:21

Okay, well, hey, Terry, your enthusiasm for this just jumps right out the screen in me and through my headphones. So I really appreciate your insights. And I think our listeners will enjoy hearing from you. Maybe your bold predictions often write them down on a post it note, slap on the wall and terrible wasn't terrible. But hey, I had to make a joke in there somewhere. But seriously, hey, I appreciate your time. And this has been fantastic.

Terry Collier  29:44

Thank you, Sean. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Sean McMahon  29:50

All righty, everyone. Well, that's our show for today. But before we get out of here, I want to say one final thank you to our sponsor. CDM Smith. Thank you all for listening, and if you haven't already, please subscribe or follow this show on Apple, Spotify, Google or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And as always, please be sure to share it with your friends and colleagues. Have a great day.